As an unemployed person with time on my hands, I have put too much effort into writing about the book. I will finish my discussion on chapter two and move onto the other chapters quickly.

Although I am willing, sometimes eager, to digress from the subject, I really am trying to be focused on dissecting the book first.

Although I do not pray, I do hope you will open your eyes and see reality as it really is.

I’ve been giving it a lot of thought, and I agree with you that we’re ‘talking past each other’. I don’t think our positions can have meaningful momentum, so long as you hold to a materialistic, existential view of life, and I hold to a theistic view.

I believe that ‘In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth’, something which I believed after being converted, at the age of 28. You believe that matter just exists and that the human mind is the ultimate arbiter over all things. I don’t think we’re going to get beyond this. What we’re ultimately debating is starting-points, not middles or ends.

Although you may see it as evidence-less nonsense, I believe that God has drawn us together to have these series of conversations, and I hope that they will lead you to read the Bible for yourself, and that you will pray to God to open your eyes and redeem your soul, through Jesus Christ.

Yours prayerfully,

Patrick.

Brian: We are talking past each other. Ihave pointed out that natural selection is entirely capable of producing altruistic behavior so your “capricious, selfish, pitiless” bit is obviously wrong. This reminds me of you earlier dismissal of Game Theory before even learning about it and your belief that there is a widely accepted theory of gravity when there isn’t (You said something like, “When I let go of a ball, it falls” as is that explained the action) You claim to have read The Selfish Gene (of did you write another book? You did claim to have read many of Dawkins’ books) but don’t recall this. If you are going to flat out ignore what I write, we may as well be done.

Patrick: Fundamentally, though, Barns is questioning why someone who believes in existence being ex nihilo ad nihilo would need to dabble with terms which are to do with moral absolutes, which can only speak of the conscience and a Creator. I don’t want to keep going on about the ‘horse being saved before the man’ confession from Dawkins’ ‘Selfish Gene’…

BRIAN: I don’t think there are moral absolutes nor that Dawkins is describing them. Good and Evil can easily be relative terms and definable. Again, Dawkins does provide an explanation for good or altruistic behavior. You have not once shown any reason why the math of game theory is wrong, but only seem to ignore it exists. (link to a google search for Game Theory and Altruism): http://tinyurl.com/c4td7sz All that needs to be done to rebut Barns is to show such that there is a possible explanation – I think it is correct, but that isn’t even necessary. Clearly,”only speak of the conscience and a Creator” is incorrect. All I need to say here is that there is another explanation.

Regarding horses and ‘Selfish Gene’, you’re going to have to research that quote. It may be in another book. Google Books cannot find it. There are two instances of the word ‘horse’ in Selfish Gene (Link to a Google Books search): http://tinyurl.com/cqb6c2a

PATRICK…
However, as with my previous reference to Caesar only being ‘evidenced’ through texts which postdate him by 1000 years, we shouldn’t assume that historical data is fallacious simply because you can’t see it with your own two eyes. That would rule out 99.9% of recorded history, apart from the stuff you see going on outside your window. Apart from a few statues, and a bunch of manuscripts dating from circa 1000 AD, who’s to say that Julius Caesar isn’t just ‘made up’? I don’t think it’s a profitable road for us to go down.

Brian: My point here is that you have no evidence. You can’t defend the Bible, and Barns never even tries to defend his claims, with that circumstantial evidence. Now, Caesar was emperor of Rome and so naturally cast a bigger shadow (I’m fine with the caveat “at that time”) than a poor preacher from an Imperial backwater. Obama, Harper, Lee Myungbak, will all be better remembered than you or I in the future so this comparison doesn’t prove anything more than demonstrate you are wrong about your claim.
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/exist.html
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/DebunkingChristians/Page10.htm
” Not only is there his own writings (The Conquest of Gaul and The Civil War), but those of his contemporaries, Cicero and Sallust, and later ancient writers such as Suetonius, Plutarch, Appian and Velleius Paterculus. ” http://tinyurl.com/csl5dgg Note that Plutarch, for example, died in 120AD so his writing is not “1000 years after the events”.

Patrick: In any case, if we had a whole raft of external ‘evidence’ for the existence of the plagues leading up to the Exodus, I would argue that there would be a million other questions, stemming from your unbelief.

Brian: You are safe in saying that as there is no evidence. You have no reason to believe I would not be swayed by real evidence.

Patrick: As it says in 1 Corinthians 1:27 ‘But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty’ It is not God’s duty to justify His existence to us. It is our duty to seek God. The history of God’s people, from Genesis to Revelation, is one of a believing people trusting in God, and embarking on a pilgrimage to heaven, trusting in God’s providence.

Brian: See my “Self-Proving Truth certificate” – you can’t use the Bible to defend the Bible unless you have outside evidence.
Next post will be about chapter two.